JeremyDuffy

Tuesday 19th August 2008 | 07:41 PM

Some people define faith as belief without proof. I've heard it once defined as "Trust without reservations" which I like a lot better since believing without proof is just a nice way of saying you're an idiot.

Anyway, I agree with most of what you said, but I don't know that opposition to stem cell research is purely religious. I also think there are non-religious reasons to be against loose sex. I do think you're right about the churches though. They only serve as a meeting of like-minded people rather than anything particularly spiritual and amazing.

Christophe

Tuesday 19th August 2008 | 07:50 PM

Great article! I completely agree with your idea that social interaction is the sole source of benefit for people going to church or any temple. The very idea that believing in a higher power (and usually fearing it) is necessary to have morals is not only nonsensical, it is actually insulting the intelligence of your fellow human beings. Can't one use their common sense, and do you really need to believe in a supernatural judge to get such a simple rule as "treat others as you would like to be treated"?

I don't consider myself an atheist (but that's only because I actually don't care whether there exists a higher power. Even if it exists, it is so uninvolved in our affairs that I don't see why I should get involved in its affairs), but I also believe that religions should not be given the benefit of the doubt. For every welfare organisation or individual charity act that can (arguably) be linked to some religion, there are untold amounts of examples of the same religion used to justify discrimination, violence, murder or war, so many that any benefits from those good acts don't measure against the ill caused by the same religion.

And the usual excuse of "they are just misinterpreting what the sacred texts/leaders/beliefs say" just does not fly with me. I judge people, organisations and ideas according to a single rule: by what they do, not by what they say. If you do good, I'll judge you good, even if you do it in the name of Satan. If you do ill, I'll judge you ill, even if you do it in the name of good.

Thank you again for this article.

Friendo

Tuesday 19th August 2008 | 08:26 PM

Jake...Your best work yet. you art 100% spot on. This issue gets me even more angry than John McCain. don't ever let up on them, they will never let up on anything.

F-

Gong

Tuesday 19th August 2008 | 10:01 PM

Another perfectly logical article. Now we wait for the perfeclty illogical comments!


is this one?

Roach

Tuesday 19th August 2008 | 10:35 PM

"God is dead and no one cares. If there is a hell, I'll see you there." - Trent Reznor NIN

Amdela

Tuesday 19th August 2008 | 11:43 PM

...in response to this comment by JeremyDuffy. The point the author was trying to make wasn't pro loose sex. It was pro safe sex, which, of course, the Catholic Church is totally against, as well as many other religions.

Just think what just this one church changing it';s stance on this would be. Think of how many less children in Africa would be raped as a way to overcome the disease if the church allowed, and pushed for, condoms.

mark

Tuesday 19th August 2008 | 11:49 PM

I understand your point very well, however, you make tons of assumptions. I am agnostic, but was raised Catholic. Every aspect of society has it's extremists, whether that be an aethist, agnostic, christian, or muslim. My point is, you simply select those people that are religous nuts to validate your point that all of religion is bad. However, in my opinion it is not. Religion provides most people with a simple set of guidelines to live by, to help cope with everyday confusion and interactions, to help steer them into a life that is less complicated. I, as mentioned, do not believe in a deity in the sky or below my feet, however, after many years have found out that if I simply listened to some basic guiding principles in various religions, it would have made my awkard transition into adulthood a bit easier. However, I was hard headed and took the fact that so many people discounted "God," and instantly discounted the word "He" supposedly spoke.

You assumed the following things:

"Without religion women would be free from their idiotic repression in the Middle East.
Without religion people would be more concerned with what they did with their lives, and what they avoided.
Without religion the strongest and most divisive form of segregation would be dissolved and many wars and borders would become irrelevant.
Without religion stem cell research could continue uninhibited and cure many debilitating diseases.
Without religion the scourge of AIDS and other STDs would be controlled by a condom.
Without religion, people wouldn't pray for peace, they would work towards it."

But are you so sure?

Non-religous people treat women like shit and dominate them too. How do you know they wouldn't be treated worse over there without their current protocol. You don't.

How do you know what people would be concerned with if their were no religion? To instantly assume they would be better is illogical.

Men, like other animals, are territorial - even without religion, borders would likely be there regardless.

Do all atheists support stem cell research? I don't even support the current way it is proposed to be funded, as I don't want the government taking my property period for their purposes. Once again, how do you know people wouldn't be opposed to it regardless of religious preference.

Disease and famine will plaque our world regardless of prevention and intervention, condoms are not the catch all, prevent all answer. Nor will they prevent future air-borne illnesses.

People do work for peace currently without praying for it, praying is nothing more than wishful thinking. Take the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This is a flat out battle over land. One side wants what the other side has, religion is a moot point.

matelot

Tuesday 19th August 2008 | 11:58 PM

world w/o religion = HELL

sbake

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 12:04 AM

Ironic that just below the article you have a donation link. Is that kind of like putting a dollar in the dish as it is passed around?

xanz doe

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 01:12 AM

...in response to this comment by Christophe. If it is "social interaction" that is the sole benefit, i guess i would ask you to speak to a member of the various orders of monks and other solitary worshipers before being so quick to adopt a "theory" on the whole thing.

And as an agnostic, i have found far more energy spent by those who don't have any kind of faith trying to insult those that do than the reverse.

i am totally baffled as to why so many atheists spend so much time "not believing".

xanz doe

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 01:19 AM

Those who would starve a child, who spend their lives hating in the name of God are indeed idiots, but without "faith" (and i seriously question the actual presence in these cases of anything but lunacy) they would surly find another reason to behave oddly.

As a believer in a divine God, in Jesus Christ (after moving from atheist, to agnostic and then arriving at a concrete opinion), i suspect you may not have met a real Christian in your life. i honestly think their are quite few. Those who, in my eyes, actually LIVE their faith and don't simply use it as a backdrop to be bazaar, are nothing i have seen depicted by you. Take it away and they would still be odd, hateful, hurtful, antisocial, and lost.

i think you are speaking of jerks, lunatics, fanatics and those bent upon holding some form of delusion. You seem not to know anyone of faith who is not extreme. i guess i find that odd.

There are just as many murdering, hateful, sickening jerks in the atheist category, and i wonder what the world would lose without atheists? The difference is this is the absolute only energy i have ever wasted wondering. i am quite off to do something more productive.

Toodleloo...

Gong

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 03:52 AM

...in response to this comment by xanz doe. bye

Jake

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:49 AM

...in response to this comment by mark. Hi Mark,

You raise some pretty interesting points. It is totally true that there are extremists in every facet of life, but you will always find the greatest number of extremists willing to kill or seriously mame for their beliefs huddled around a bible, koran or totem pole for example.

I also suggest that there an incredible difference between an extremist atheist and an extremist religious person. The atheist deals with facts when defending atheism, not esoteric guesses based on what people thought they knew about the universe 2500 years before the industrial revolution. The atheist's atheistic mentors are more likely to be people that uncovered some actual truth about the universe, instead of purporting to have been an incarnated god.

You are correct though, extremism isn't isolated to religion.

You are also correct that ending religion won't stop men from abusing their wives, but it will allow women those women who have been completely opressed and repressed by their own religion to seed a society built on equality, one where they have actual, tangible rights.

Stem cell research is staunchly opposed by the catholic and anglican church in Australia. Unfortunately, due to the somewhat ethical nature of the research, any bill pertaining to it must be arbitrated by a conscience vote in parlinment. This is where religion restricts the research. Funding is irrelivent if it is allowed to actually work to its capacity. The international scientific research and drug companies are waiting to dump billions of dollars into the countries able to perform the research uninhibited, Italy gets all that money at the moment.

Disease an famine will always exist and as they pop up, we find ways to prevent them and cure them. In the case of Africa and their STDs, Chollera, Syphilis,AIDS, HIV, there is a prevention mechanism which is effective if actually used. This preventative is blocked by the catholic church, so the people don't use it and continue to spread the disease.

Palestine and Israel is an example, though I dare say that if the American public actually wanted bush to stop his tyrrany, they would get off their knees and onto their feet.

Jake

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 08:03 AM

...in response to this comment by sbake. I'm not a professional writer, but a buck here or there from people who have enjoyed what I write is a little different to recieving handouts for doing nothing... plus I pay taxes!

Jake

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 08:42 AM

...in response to this comment by xanz doe. Xanz doe, a couple of good points you raise.

Bhudism is an extrodinary thing. I've met many bhudists who are almost offended when you associate it with religion because bhudism is a solitary persuit and has nothing to do with anyone outside of yourself.

"i am totally baffled as to why so many atheists spend so much time "not believing"."

Usually, this comes from the utter disgust atheists feel when they see children being abused with religion. I'm sick of it and I recognise that it must stop if we are to really progress as a species.

Every christian is a 'true christian' mate. The bible is not infalliable, it is open to interpretation and individual or congregational perspective. There is not one person in the world who can call themself a better christian to the next person because all they are ever doing is following the flawed doctrine based on their interpretation.

You're called a christian because you follow 'the ways of the christ', right, the ways of jesus? Well mate, having read the bible, I'm a little disallusioned because Jesus didn't write anything in there, not a word. All of the stuff pertaining to jesus was written by people who never knew the guy. Even saul, the only one who might have actually been alive during jesus' time, wrote of jesus as though he had never lived, as though he was a purely esoteric and metaphorical. Again, there is no such thing as a true christian, a true muslim, a true daoist.

Anders

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 10:51 AM

Fantastic work Jake. While reading I felt like you were channelling my thoughts.

Jake

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 11:22 AM

...in response to this comment by Anders. Well then, pay up big guy!

Na, just kidding... kind of ; )

Cat

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 11:41 AM

Jake,

All the red in the Gospel is Jesus Christ's words. The gospel is written by eye witnesses. Everything was documented by the Eye witnesses, and later put into the book.

The message from Jesus is peaceful, so I don't (get it) why you criticize him. Anyone that learns Christ message doesn't judge anyone nor have any influence on Politics, laws passed nor any religion.

Cat

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 11:47 AM

Jake,

Now when Preachers mix the Old Testament with the new testament then this is a different story altogether. One cannot misinterpret the new testament except people that are corrupt from the beginning and are pushing wars ( false preachers).

alphgeek

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 12:04 PM

Great post, but it is really your last line that sums it up for me. So much of religion seems to be about abrogating responsibility away from ourselves onto a mystical being in the sky. I mistreated a fellow human? Never mind, God will forgive me if I repent. Sending my armies to invade the heathens? God's Divine Plan. Global warming? The Lord works in mysterious ways.

If we were somehow able to mature sufficiently as a species to take some real responsibility for ourselves then I have no doubts that the world would be a better place. We could rationally and realistically appraise what works and what doesn't, and hopefully work together to solve some of the challenges facing us.

I believe that religion is antithetical to rational thought as it trains the brain into a mode of thinking whereby the brain can ignore reality, or compartmentalise evidence that runs counter to one's religious indoctrination. It's not the only thing that can do so of course - the 'mob' mentality seen during riots is somewhat similar, as are the personality cults of Hitler, Stalin and Kim.

I don't mean this insultingly but I think that human nature has an aspect that wants to submerge itself into a herd, where we are OK as long as we do what the fellow next to us does, we follow the leader and we don't try to be independent. Religion caters to this very effectively so it is naturally a powerful force in society.

alphgeek

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 12:06 PM

...in response to this comment by Cat. Actually Cat, the writers of the Gospels lived long (decades to hundreds of years) after Jesus's death. Only Paul possibly lived in or near Jesus's time and there is no evidence to show that he actually knew Jesus at all.

Jake

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 12:30 PM

...in response to this comment by Cat. That is bull shizzle Cat, no Biblical historian would quantify what you've just said. Nothing in the bible was written by jesus or by 'eye witnesses', but please feel free to post your sources. The ultimate proof of this is that jesus, if he were indeed a real person, was a fundamentalist jew and would never have been so heretic as to write a holy book. This really shows the ignorance of religious people unwilling to actually do research into their own religions. No offence though Cat.

The message from 'jesus' is not peaceful: If your brother comes into your house and talks of another god, kill him.

Jake

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 12:36 PM

...in response to this comment by alphgeek. Alphageek, cheers for reading, and well summed up. I too have problems with the aspect of religion that absolves one of their own responsibility or accountability towards real life events.

It thouroughly disgusts me when I hear christians say that as a convicted paedophile/murderer/rapist/homocidal maniac, you will go to heaven if you accept jc as your.... you know the garbage story - over someone who has lived a productive life. It is sublime in it's own idiocy.

Friendo

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 12:53 PM

I don't think I have to get very specific, but some of this stuff makes me puke. I get so angry.

F-

CompGeek

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 01:06 PM

Many religions our beautiful, they're followers... not so much ;^).... nuance your article but good points n see where you coming from... Good Article!!!

DarkSyde

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 01:47 PM

very well put. supurb logic.

Pissantpunk

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 02:52 PM

I follow fellow atheist posts as best I can, and was pointed to this one by a friend.

A world without religion is my #1 dream for the world. I couldn't imagine a better place than that without mind control.

I find it really hard to believe that people can actually be so blind as to not see what's right in front of them. Facts laying flat on the table, but yet they turn their heads or bury them in the sand.
It makes me sad.

People tell me, "It won't hurt you to let others believe what they want." This is very untrue. It hurts damn near everyone on the planet. Perhaps if they (the religious nut jobs) kept their views SOLELY to themselves then that might be true. But that's not the case. Laws are passed or denied by religion. Social, racial, and sexual biggotry is strengthened by religion. A VERY COMMON example is in homosexuals. Religious hypocrytes can spend hours talking with someone and think they are the greatest person until the "G" bomb is dropped. Suddenly "that gay guy" isn't as cool as once thought, and that's not only from the males. Females are just as bad, if not worse. (especially if they had interst in said "gay" male.)

Religion causes people to stab their nephews in the eye because they are autistic, but in their warped minds are possessed, People cutting off parts of their bodies because they believe the mark of the devil is on them, Cut off the head of their child while driving down the road because he was "possessed" and needed to die, etc. etc. etc.

I try to be a good person for me... NOT because I fear punishment after death. In fact I don't believe in an afterlife of any type what so ever, so what do I have to fear? I fear treating people less than people. I fear that I might have made someone's day bad. I fear that I didn't cause some sort of joy in someone's life daily. I fear hurting people, and this is why I fear religion.

I was christian until I was 15 years old. All the biggotry and hatred I heard preached one day made me walk out of the sermon and never return. I'm actually glad for that day. On that day I started doing my own research on religion without the veil of religion over my eyes.

Thank you for your post.

erichansa

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 05:54 PM

Why do humans insist on being so willfully ignorant and refuse to take their rightful place as the only deities upon this planet?

Anomymous

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 06:19 PM

Careful with some of this. As an atheist I fully agree the world would be a better place without irrational belief, however some of your points are stretched very thin...

Repression of women and hatred towards Israel in the Middle East is not only religious, there are also cultural and ethnic causes.

If you think religion is the only reason people don't use rubbers, you're a fool. That said, without religious influence use of condoms in HIV-hit areas would certainly be higher.

Damon

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 06:27 PM

As a former hard-core atheist, after searching many religions I eventually found the message of Christ to be the most compelling: forgiveness, mercy, love, joy, and peace. I am unsure where you have been looking in the Bible to see such negativism. Life without God is meaningless and we have seen the results of that sort of thing: Nazism, Communism, etc. People who try to "destroy God" end up just eliminating the people who BELIEVE in God, which usually ends up in mass murder (Stalin, Mao). I also find that pagans can be some of the most shockingly hateful people I have ever run across. And extremism isn't just limited to religious sects, some of the most extreme people I have encountered were money-grubbing atheists bent on "getting their own" and screw everybody else. When people final realize that they truly are accountable to God, then this world will be a much better place, IMHO. Damon

Paul Gray

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 06:30 PM

Given you swear on the bible in court to tell the truth, then one has to ask the logical question. If the bible was put on trial - could it be proven beyond reasonable doubt; I do believe it would not. Ironic isn't it.

If there is a God then you would never be able to read this! think about that and please, dont knell down whilst your doing it.

Religion was created to control the mass's and as a early form of education, we have outgrown it and only have it nowadays to appease those less evolved. Religion thesedays holds man back as it has done for many many years now - flat earth anybody!

Given that we all (mostly) know that the Sun is what it is and why it gets dark at night, the caveman need to explain these mystery's and there evolution to a singular God realy needs to be put into context.

Remember to acknowledge god - any god is also to acknowledge the Devil as well equaly. Now with this in mind, are religious people realy just undiagnosed sadomasicists I wonder and in need of help.

Also note to hear the voice of God in your head is fine but to hear a voice by any other name is a trip to the looney farm.

I personaly respect people wish's to be ignorant as long as they respect my wish's or I end up melting there brains with the fact that if only `god` can create souls then how come there is more than two souls on this planet as god created Adam and Eve. But religion is all about ignoring the detail is it not! :(.

Trent

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 06:32 PM

I agree with your insight but I think your argument oversimplifies the complexity of religion. Regardless of how ridiculous religion is, people will always cling to it and it will be impossible to eliminate. The only thing we can do is try to reform it to curb fanaticism and to decentralize its power over Western Civilization. You should read Emile Durkheim's Elementary Forms of Religious Life or Camus' They Myth of Sisyphus, there's a lot of good material in there. Religion is indeed absurd, but people will nevertheless always cling to it. Durkheim argued that in every society there is always a distinction between the sacred and the profane, and that distinction leads to the formation of religious dogma. Regardless of whether there is any validity to a religion, people cling onto it because god, as Durkheim puts it, is essentially society superimposed. In every society there is always something that is treated as sacred, and therefore it will always be given a status that is higher than the individual/community/society. Is it possible to eliminate the ability to treat something as sacred?

People need religion to give them hope, to believe in something, and so they put all the values that they idealize in society and everything they find sacred into a social institution - religion. Hence religion is just a pipe-dream for utopia, and people go to all different means to achieve it, oftentimes at the harm of others.

Camus' Myth of Sisyphus discusses the concept of absurdity - that all life is meaningless and absurd. To reconcile this alienating and disorienting truth, people come up with devices to satisfy themselves, delude themselves to believe that something can make them happy enough to live, or make the "leap of faith" - believe in a higher power and purpose via spirituality and religion.

Lastly, I want to cite Greg Gaffin's disseration"Monism, atheism, and the naturalist worldview: Perspectives from evolutionary biology " which analyzes religion from an evolutionary standpoint. As the frontman of Bad Religion, Gaffin knows his religion, and he basically argues that humans evolved to develop religion, that is, the development of their brains and high order thinking ability allowed them to produce the concept of religion.

Basically, I agree with your points on the ridiculousness of religion, but I don't think it is that simple to eliminate it. People will always place sacred value into something that is otherwise meaningless, because that is the nature of people. And while I would like to eliminate religion all together as a social institution, I think it would have even more serious repercussions than the havoc that it is reeking now. Unless everyone becomes existential, we will be forever chained to the delusions of religion. But if that is what keeps things in order and allows people to live their lives, then perhaps our best approach is to reform it, not to destroy it.

Realistic Muslim

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 06:33 PM

In all honestly, I've been through a phase in my life in which I've completely abandoned my faith for years, mainly after 9/11, and after seeing the repressive, practices that is preached by the leaders of my religion firsthand. I would go on the very same tirades as you as to why religion is unnecessary, and should be abolished.

But after I slowly regained my faith (The story of that isn't the point of my post), I didn't shun away anyone that was atheist, because I understood, and still understand, their logic. Either they just didn't understand that if God was all loving, all merciful, how could he allow such atrocities on Earth to occur, or simply just used the scientific method and realized that there is no benevolent, magical, force out there.

Whatever classification of athiest you are, there is one flaw in your request for a world without religion. What is the plan for abolishing it, (And here's the kicker...) peacefully? Yes I understand that it proves your point that religion is intolerant, but to me, I think instead of people of all faiths, or lack of; should be focusing on writing about what steps they should take to coexist, rather then to destroy one's beliefs. Does this make sense?

Essentially to sum my long, redundant post up... I'm saying that atheists should be more realistic in how they think the world should be, seeing that the logic card is definately on their side.

Paul Gray

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 06:34 PM

...in response to this comment by Damon. moraly alot of religions have a good point, the morals of Christianity, the dietary leassons in Hindu and indeed the two seperate sinks in Jewdisiam for dairy and meat make perfect sence. But thats it - it was a way to educate people. Dont get me wrong Religion has a place, but only for those who cant grasp the bigger picture.

Bottom line I like the tune but the lyrics leave alot to be desired!

prcrash

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 06:36 PM

...in response to this comment by matelot. Very intelligent comment.

Jimeee

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 06:37 PM

"Without religion the strongest and most divisive form of segregation would be dissolved and many wars and borders would become irrelevant."

Not really - Some would argue that nationalism is far stronger.

Religion is a scapegoat - if religion didn't exist then the same wars and conflicts would simply still exist under a different pretext.

ben

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 06:39 PM

...in response to this comment by xanz doe. Well, I can't speak for other people, but I find it real worrying that in this day and age people still base their decisions on religious beliefs. Even more so for people in power, as they can literally influence a large number of people to do same regardless of logical thought.

This is why I spend so much time not believing, because the without logical rational ideas we are going to find it very hard to progress as a species.
You have to start small and I think just pointing out the flaws in people's religous ideas and talking about it openly is a very positive start.

Gimmiepistachio

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 06:39 PM

I would also describe myself as an atheist who does not believe in religious tolerance.

Religion is a unit of information that is what it is, only because it has evolved the ability to replicate in an efficient manner. A religion that does not induce it's followers to spread it, is a dead religion.

This makes religion itself no more evil than a virus. Religious followers on the other hand...

Aaron

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 06:46 PM

I mostly agree with your views, except for the fact that I think there is more to visiting religious sites than simply a congregation of like-minded people. By the way, in Hinduism, people normally go to temples individually. Congregations are only on special occasions.
For me, it's just about the faith that perhaps someone is looking after you. It gives you someone to confide in when nothing seems to be going right. And when I visit temples, it's by myself.
But of course, religion should not be enforced on anyone. And should not have to be such a big part of your life, that it becomes your life! Religion is man made and ridiculous. Faith in a higher power is, I think, something that might be ingrained in us humans. Only, we can magnify it, suppress it or do what we want with it.

Lord of this world

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 06:49 PM

The sum of all gods is and always has been exactly zero.

ben

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 06:52 PM

...in response to this comment by xanz doe. As you are a christian you must take the bible as literal, because the religion demands it (not to mention it's the word og god). As such, the bible clearly states that it is ok to: stone to death your wife if she is not a virgin on your wedding day, kill a man if he works on the sabbath and many other things that we now know today to be cruel.

Therefore, any real christian that follows the teachings of the bible in their completness must also believe that such cruel acts are justified. But obviously the average run of the mill christian who goes to church on sunday and prays now and then is not going to believe such barbaric ideas. But that is only because they have used their own rational and moral ideas to pick the good lessons and ignore the bad ones.

You can't have it both ways! I personally think most people use religion because they find it hard to cope with life and need something to reinsure them that everything will be ok. This is fine, but we must remember that that has no bearing on the validity of the religion. All that tells us is that people are flawed and find it hard to deal with life.

Anonymous Reader

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 06:53 PM

I dig your sentiment about this, and I agree.

I just dislike your use of "retard" when any number of derogatory words could have been used in it's place.

I'm not offended by the usage. I just think this could be taken a lot more seriously with better vocabulary.

LukeUK

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 06:57 PM

Personally I completely understand where the writer and people who agree with this article are coming from.
That said, I think the majority of people fail to see the point. The problem isn't religion itself but rather the problem is mankind, it is mankind who believe they have a right to do things in the name of religion. Ultimately this foolishness of mankind twists religion to justify their actions diverging from the religion itself into a mutant that fits with how individuals wish to use it, almost like a subconscious, guilt free way of going about their dirty dealings.
So when I imagine a world without religion, I still see a world with as much pain, suffering and hate, people would justify their dealings with other causes, religion just happens to be the modern easy way of justification as it fits with what a person would require. That being, a clean conscience and a confidence. These people convince themselves they do things in the name of religion when ultimately they are satisfying their selfish needs subconsciously. they're just too stupid to realise.

Indra

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:03 PM

for me, Islam is a way of life. I tried walking away from my belief but I always want to return to it. call me naive or whatever, but the only way I can understand life is thru Islam. things like how nature works, how our body was designed, the lay out of our face, how small we are compared to the universe, how short our lives are compared to time itself, for me it's too hard to believe that everything happens by itself, or by chance.

yes I agree with some points you mentioned, but I believe that you're talking about organized religions and not the true religion. besides, men will fight each other anyway with or without religion. I guess it's natural for human beings to look for the God, if you look back at history.

about your question "what does your religion actually do for you that you couldn’t for yourself?"

the truth is for me, there are things we certainly can't control, like death for example. we humans are weak.

Peace :)

John

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:10 PM

every statistican knows that correlation does not mean causation.

let's then examine from another perspective that the common denominator is not that these behaviors are stemming from religion. they're rooted in the fact that we're all human.

then we can entertain the idea that it's humankind's innate desires to repress and to dominate one another that causes all the calamity in this world. All the boy-touching by priests, injustices against women in the Middle East, etc. are all performed by humans.

So then, is being human the fault of humans?

I don't know if you get the point, but it's highly ignorant to say that all religions are the cause of world gone haywire.

fanboy

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:12 PM

Damon,

"As a former hard-core atheist, after searching many religions.."

If you were such a "hard-core atheist" you wouldn't be searching for religion.

1995

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:15 PM

...in response to this comment by xanz doe. elegantly said.

Naverus

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:22 PM

Good article, but in the end, I think many are blurring the lines between religion and human stupidity. To me, it's just that simple. Regardless of the spoken or implied reasoning, a lot of human beings are stupid and if not stupid, at the very least, ignorant. A world without religion would simply be that; a world without religion. People don't need a reason to abuse women, oppose stem cell research, condoms and/or go to war.

I guess in the end it is easy to blame religion because people openly use it as a scapegoat, but can you honestly say that it is because of religion that evil people commit such acts? Where do we draw the line between people who are delusional and people who are genuinely disgusting?

Jonathan

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:23 PM

I often hear religious fundamentalists claiming that there can be no morals without a higher power. To me this is exceptionally dangerous thinking, especially given what they usually add right afterwards, along the lines of "without I would do nothing but murder, rape and pillage all day".

This tells us a lot about the mindset of those claiming this: Can one claim to be a 'good' person, when any good acts they perform are done out of fear of eternal retribution (for finite transgressions of often arbitrary rules no less). If you help an old lady across the street because I held you to do so at gunpoint, you acted not out of compassion, but were coerced. At the very best, it is done in hopes of (equally infinite and arbitrary) rewards, which is extremely mercenary, but not very selfless at all.

In this way, religions (especially the Abrahamic ones) not only enforce intolerance, antisocial and inhuman acts, but more importantly remove much of the possibility of followers being capable of being truly selfless or 'good'.

That guy

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:25 PM

Heheh, your starting to sound like John Lennon.

I don't think it's a matter of there not being any religion, it's more people keeping their religious beliefs to their fucken selves.

Personally I'm a Christian, but there are a few things that really tick me off:
• People protesting or objecting to something because of their religious views.
• People preaching or "lecturing" that religion is the only way to go, that their religion is right and all other religions are "heresy".
• People using religion as an excuse for their actions.
• People relying on religion to fix all their mistakes, or forgive them of their wrong doings.
• And people taking religion way too seriously and being closed minded about it - like denying logic and science, because a 1000+ year old book doesn't say so.

The world needs religion because without it we would have no morals and laws. And I agree with "matelot"s comment above: world w/o religion = HELL

I'm not disagreeing with you, you have a very good point and I do agree with you (for the most part), but it does have it's flaws.

Kevitivity

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:27 PM

It's not about a world "without" religion, the nazis and communists showed us what that was about and it WASN'T cool. The real question is "what" religion humans will cling to in the future... BTW, I'm an agnostic atheist. :) You will never hear me tell you how the universe works (none of us know).

Charles

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:28 PM

Finally. Someone said it.

No religious tolerance, period.

A guy called Jerrald

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:28 PM

What annoys me the most is those hard core religious practitioners who go to church regularly do not actually abide by the teachings of their faith.
If that actually were the case, people would "love their neighbors", "turn the other cheek" etc.
If this was happening from 1% of the religious practitioners as their faith dictates, this world would be a heaven.
Have a look around, dont look much like that to me.
We as humans are a weak and easily corruptible species. Other people with more power (money) wont allow this type of system of tranquility and serenity to take place. Hence, the guy burn 2000 years ago who said that people should be nice to each other was crussefied.
So, if you are indeed are a religious practitioner, try to stick to the basics. Doesnt matter if you go to church every day, or pray every 5 minutes. Try behave like a decent human being, or dont call your self a follower of whatever religion you are following.
Just going to church doesnt make you a christian, and doesnt mean you will go to heaven.
Think about that...

Naverus

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:29 PM

...in response to this comment by Naverus. and to expand upon my original thought, it is my personal belief that those considering religion to be the root of certain acts of human cruelty aren't all that different than those who use religion to excuse themselves from those very acts of human cruelty. No offense to anyone here, but to think anyone can argue one side or the other without looking as ignorant as the opposition is bad comedy.

John Doe

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:33 PM

...in response to this comment by ben. We should just get rid of the retards and take their stem cells. It's not like their productive members of society.

Insigificant mortal

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:36 PM

"Life is like an onion: you peel off layer after layer and then you find there is nothing in it."
- James Gibbons Huneker

This life is insignificant,superfluous.Religion is a itinerary of ignorance which tires to escape this reality.

Valeech

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:37 PM

...in response to this comment by ben. RE: Ben,


Not all "christians" are required to take the bible literally. In fact, if you understand anything about Christianity you would realize that most of your examples of cruelty were taken from Mosaic law. And what do we know about Mosaic Law? It was abolished by Christ.

I am continually amazed how many atheists have such strong opinions about Christianity, when they have never actually read the Bible. For so many people who claim to be self thinkers that use logic as a weapon, it is my experience that the vast majority of atheists get their opinions by the liberal media, a bad experience at mom and dad's church, being touched by their priest or perhaps surviving a pencil in the eye. Religions are made up of people. People are flawed! Not necessarily the principles being taught.

In response to the OP, I disagree with some of the points you have made. Without centuries worth of moral compass provided to societies by religion, why do you think people would be civil enough to care what happens to their neighbor if there is no god to be accountable to? I would argue that man, as an animal, would not have these reservations and thus would not hesitate taking from his neighbor that which is not his. I believe religion, good or bad, has serviced our society to provide the moral compass we have today, has provided a foundation for society to build from.

John Haliday

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:38 PM

Great article! Its nice to see some common ideas put down in a short and concise way.

To all those who think a world without religion may be worse or just as bad.........a true religion-free environment has never been realised because religion has also oppressed free thought and anything that might stand up against it's archaic teachings. How would you know its worse? Atheists do not claim it's going to be a perfect world, but at least we are willing to try and see how we can solve problems and not just accept the things as they are.

Would you not want to know what the world would be like? or does that scare you?

Statistically countries/populations that are less religious are more generous, have less crime and far more educated than the rest of the world. Should we just ignore this because religion preaches (without any basis) that a world without religion would be worse?

Yolanda

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:39 PM

In defence of religion....

http://www.rustylime.com/show_article.php?id=2407

Why is the site so slow to load tonight?

Scott

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:43 PM

I really enjoyed your article. It reminded me of the fortune cookie rule: future cookies are better if you add the words "in bed" to end of the fortune. In your case, I think the following descriptions of life without religion make more sense if you add the phrase "just like in modern china and communist russia" to the end of each. What a joke.

* Without religion women would be free from their idiotic repression in the Middle East.
* Without religion people would be more concerned with what they did with their lives, and what they avoided.
* Without religion the strongest and most divisive form of segregation would be dissolved and many wars and borders would become irrelevant.
* Without religion stem cell research could continue uninhibited and cure many debilitating diseases.
* Without religion the scourge of AIDS and other STDs would be controlled by a condom.
* Without religion, people wouldn't pray for peace, they would work towards it.

Mikey

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:48 PM

...in response to this comment by Yolanda. That's called the Digg Effect. I expect things to get better over the next few hours. Sorry about that Yolanda :-)

Darren

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:49 PM

Totally awesome post, summarising everything wrong with organised religion.

By the way, I read an interesting theory that claims God is an Atheist:

"There are two tenants of belief in religion...
1. Belief in a higher being
2. Belief without proof
Since God is the highest power in the Universe, he cannot believe in a higher being. Since God is also all-knowing, he cannot have belief without proof, because he can easily proove anything. Therefore God is an Atheist."

If the omnipresent, omniscient God is really here, knowing everything as we are told he does, wouldn't this state of affairs depress him somewhat? This leads to proof that he can't exist:
- Since God is supposedly good-natured and kind, why does he not interfere in the mass murder?
- Because God is omniscient, he already knows whether or not - at any time in the future - whether he will interfere
- If he does not interfere, he also knows about our dystopian future, one that is likely either atheist or forced to obey a religion that does not include Him
- Then why not interfere, save lives today, prove that He exists, and ensure the continuation of the Christian faith. That is His goal... right? The continuation of the Christian faith? Because without the faith, without believers, who would go to Heaven? I'm a nice guy, but because I don't believe, I'm doomed to Hell.

Christianity is facing oblivion, because simply in the power struggle of today's world, it isn't ruthless, sadistic or powerful enough to compete against the other religions or against the increasingly-popular atheism.

WordWise

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 07:50 PM

* Without religion women would be free from their idiotic repression in the Middle East.
Take religion away(if you could), and you would find the exact same oppressions for some other reason or another.

* Without religion people would be more concerned with what they did with their lives, and what they avoided.
That makes little sense.

* Without religion the strongest and most divisive form of segregation would be dissolved and many wars and borders would become irrelevant.
Again... though religions have been used by countless people as cause for war, the inclinations for wars would still exist with or without religious backing.
If we somehow managed to remove religion, people would simply find *new excuses for war.

* Without religion stem cell research could continue uninhibited and cure many debilitating diseases.
I doubt religion is the primary culprit on stem cell research.
Then again... mad science is probably not something you'd enjoy dealing with either.
Religion or not, we have to set boundaries to preserve the values of life, and it is up to us to find peaceful and harmonious ways to work within those boundaries.

* Without religion the scourge of AIDS and other STDs would be controlled by a condom.
You're really struggling here aren't you?
Try doing a bit of research on this topic before writing such nonsense.

* Without religion, people wouldn't pray for peace, they would work towards it.
Though it is not uncommon for people to blame religion for all of mankind's problems, it is quite obvious that you are not quite on top if the reality of situation when it comes to understanding human behavior.
At best, your list *looks interesting, however in reality, this is not an accurate reflection of the impact of religions on our nations.

In reference to the starving child in your text, it is quite obvious that such atrocities should never happened.

Sam

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 08:03 PM

I was born and raised a Muslim. I do not know what i would call myself now, for i am not truly religious nor atheist nor agnostic. I believe that the 'truths' preached by followers of a given religion, whatever that religion may be, are merely derived from common sense principles of life which have been given divine weight. I agree with most of what you have said, but would like to just make a clarification to one of your 'assumptions' (as one of the other commenters put it).

I grew up in Saudi Arabia, and i now live and work in the same area. I can honestly say, from my observations from both within and outside of the country and the society, that it is not the religion that oppresses the women of Saudi Arabia (regardless of what is spewed by the media). It falls back on the fact that at our base, we are a nomadic, tribal people. The traditions and cultural norms of the tribe are what most people today confuse with religious scripture. I am not talking merely about non-Saudis, for even Saudis have confused the teachings of Islam with the traditions of their tribes. If you actually study the religion you will see that Islam respects and elevates women above the men. It is unfortunate that the Islamic teachings have been interpreted by religious scholars to mean what they what it to mean, rather than what it was intended to mean. It is not only religious reform that is needed to open up this country but rather social reform. If tomorrow, it was passed into law that women were allowed to drive in Saudi, for instance, i gurantee you that the very nature of the family structure and our tribal roots will keep at least 80-90% of women from driving.

I grew up with Christmas trees and Halloween, in addition to the Islamic holidays and celebrations, and i remember a time when you could go out our during Christmas and see houses decked out with lights to rival those of any in a typical American neighborhood. I look forward to a time when my daughter can experience the same things i did in a country like Saudi, and i feel that it is happening, just at a snails pace.

EAV Tank

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 08:09 PM

All,

See the South Park episode on Atheism.....basically, when everyone is an Atheist, there will only be many, arguing sects of Atheism.......Nihilism is the answer. Or was it egotheism?

Harry Roberts

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 08:12 PM

Religion is completely redundant in today's society. It's a hangover from when people didn't know anything - which explains why the majority of religions explain the same things differently, and is reinforced by the fact that religion varies geographically. Secluded societies (I'm talking years ago here) made up their own stories (read, religions) because they hadn't heard say, the Christian version of events.

Stephanie Shepherd

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 08:12 PM

Great read. Having said that - you can expect a Fatwa in the post. lol. Only joking

Densha

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 08:12 PM

to Metlot

(who said: a world w/o religion = HELL )

is like saying a world w/o Luke Skywalker = The Empire would rule the galaxy ... don't you see if Luke Skywalker does not exist, so it doesn't the empire

if religion does not exist, so does not the hell. hell is an invention by religion

Mint

Wednesday 20th August 2008 | 08:15 PM

I do dislike that every time a FEW religiously stunted people do something that is horrible everyone blames the religion, not the personal madness. That's scapegoating like the Manson & Columbine fiasco. I have met religious people who read their books well enough to understand that is a personal choice, and it must be applied to their lives, not their lives conforming to it.

I think we are forgetting that religion has formed from rites, which, a long time ago, was our way of having a central, binding, uniting culture. Because, let's face it, it's lonely out there. Sure, we used them, and still do, against others. But we're forgetting in the great religion debate that it changes with those who are in it. ((Consider : Odin & Zeus were once GODS - feared and worshipped, not filed under myths but under religion. For the most part, they are just stories now. ))

We have many "splinter" beliefs sucked from one major one. I think that is just part of human nature, and a way of change and almost thinking for one's self. (Those who did the initial split anyway.)

Also, note that the majority, if not all, religions have a section on how to behave towards one another. They do contain rules of conduct & society, most sharing the basic theme of "don't mess, bless, keep it on the d.l.". Therefore, you can see religion as either a solidifying vessel of such rules of behavior, or an enforcer. Either way, not too bad.


*As a chick in the U.S. - sometimes I want to wear a big sheet to cover up too. I don't like it when old guys stare at my boobs, its not my fault I have them. I don't even wear 'revealing' stuff and I'm still looked at. A lot of the women there wear them because they don't want to be gawked at. Also, historically/culturally speaking, the practice of a woman covering herself dates back a loooooooong time, perhaps not even completely religiously related. After all, lots of sand storms in the desert, ne?

Jake

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 07:12 AM

...in response to this comment by Pissantpunk. Pissantpunk:

"People tell me, "It won't hurt you to let others believe what they want." This is very untrue. It hurts damn near everyone on the planet. Perhaps if they (the religious nut jobs) kept their views SOLELY to themselves then that might be true. But that's not the case. Laws are passed or denied by religion. Social, racial, and sexual biggotry is strengthened by religion. A VERY COMMON example is in homosexuals. Religious hypocrytes can spend hours talking with someone and think they are the greatest person until the "G" bomb is dropped. Suddenly "that gay guy" isn't as cool as once thought, and that's not only from the males. Females are just as bad, if not worse. (especially if they had interst in said "gay" male.) "

Brilliantly said, my friend. Thanks for contributing.

Jacob

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 08:27 AM

I am an atheist too but stopped reading at, "they... teach nothing but intolerance".

Anders

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 10:28 AM

...in response to this comment by Stephanie Shepherd. Best comment yet :-)

Jake

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 11:09 AM

...in response to this comment by Anders. Always wanted a fatwa to call my own! Ever since John Safran went to the UK to have a fatwa put on Rove McMannis, I wanted one...

storm

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 11:10 AM

Religions started as ways to:
- try and explain things people could never understand (weather, fire, the sun, moon, stars, life, death etc)
- instill common sense (don't eat pork (as if it wasn't cooked REALLY well it could kill you), don't be nasty, don't sleep with other people's wives, look after your health, etc etc).

But as our knowledge of the world and life has grown, religion is losing it's 'magic'. More and more of it's 'teachings' are being proven false (like the world being created by God a few thousand years ago). The more enlightened people of the world realise that they don't need religion to be good people... they can just be 'good people'. Let me state that again to you Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists etc.... YOU DON'T NEED RELIGION TO BE A GOOD PERSON. Keep hold of your culture, but don't use religion as an excuse to enforce shitty things on people (even in your own culture, like Muslim women having to wear Burkha's or not being allowed to drive). Personally, I think the Muslim faith is about 500 years behind in it's attitude towards women at the very least (as 500 years ago Christian women were treated the same way as second class citizens).

Religion is on the way out. It only held sway by fear and indoctrination for the last 2,000 years, and has been responsible for most of the worlds atrocities, or used as an excuse for those atrocities (Catholic persecution of the Cathars and everyone else, for starters). Whatever happened to the Roman and Greek Gods, the Egyptian Gods, the Persian Gods, the Celtic Gods, the Mayan Gods, the Aztec Gods, the Norse Gods, the Inuit Gods, the Zulu Gods, the Hittite Gods, the Hun Gods, etc etc etc....
Christianity and Islam are relatively young compared to all of those ancient religions, which were around for alot longer, and still died out and were replaced by something (arguably) better and which made more sense.

Atheism is making more sense all the time.

Let me just say though that I don't think religion should be banned (as if it ever could be anyway), but that people should concentrate on being decent people first, and then their religion will follow. And if they are found not to be decent people, they should be kicked out of their religion which they are just hiding behind to do evil things.

Jake

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 11:18 AM

...in response to this comment by storm. Religion is often gains its strength suring times of adversity, people sink into their beliefs as a way of escapism, so you're right, banning it is not the answer.

Regardless of this though Storm, religion, of all forms has lost its relivance.

I think in the past, where any natural event was unexplainable and therefore likely to create hysteria umong the populace, the supernatural (gods, religion etc) was used to circumvent such a response, and I'm sure it was effective.

Now as we progress, religion is unable to do this and is unable to find a common ground on which to exert its self, and is, as such, looking its relivance in the main.

I'm sure, in the future, it will loose its dogmatism and stive for a more spiritual (and inevitably less harmful) stance. Something to the order of, 'this is what we think makes up the universe, now go out and discover it for yourself, happy to help if you like, but otherwise it is a solitary persuit', instead of, 'the truth is in a book written 2500 years before the industrial evolution'.

If it doesn't and people simply stop taking its bull shizzle as truth, it will simply become redundant and fade into the past.

ScottC

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 11:38 AM

Jake Jake Jake Jake Jake. I feel that your article has some very serious flaws as you are taking a very narrow segment of the population (people who do bad things in the name of religion) and blame religion instead of the people. I found it amusing reading because I sense you honestly feel that if there was no religion there would be no crime, no repression, no segregation, no disease and no war. Is Atheism so morally superior that there are no atheist in prison (or a foxhole)?

No. I contend that people do bad/horrible/ignorant/stupid things because they are bad/horrible/ignorant/stupid people. Religion is their excuse or justification for their behavior but in a world without religion they would find another excuse or something else to justify their actions.

I believe that the world would be a better place not if people were atheist but if they would simply follow the basic tenets of their religion (i.e. the golden rule, the ten commandments).

I believe that even if its completely wrong religion still serves a useful purpose in that it is the ultimate reward/punishment system. That if you are a bad person you will end up being punished in the end and if you are a basically good person then even if you are not rewarded now for your good deeds you will be rewarded later. Without religion society will probably be a lot worse off as more and more people of lesser restraint or self control decide to do/take whatever they want as there is no punishment other than what the law provides IF they get caught.

Could that be our problem today? Not that we have religion but that we have lost it?

:)

Cat

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 11:58 AM

Jake,

We have been there before, you can look back on the same questions and answers from other blogs on dates the Bible were written. However, this won’t make any differences, would it? It didn't before and it won’t today because you believe we are not free and you're free, which is bogus.

Human beings are free thinkers regardless of their spiritual beliefs. You claim that Jesus is violent, but please point out to me where in the Bible it states that he was violent? He accepted his death and when one of his followers cut off the man's ear when they came to take Jesus, Jesus asked him, when have I been violent with you? And when have I demonstrated Violence? Then Jesus repaired the man's ear. Jesus said this very clear, one who lives by the sword shall die by the sword. What does that mean? You reap what you sow.

Ok, now let’s compare Jesus’ message:

THE NEW TESTAMENT
"Blessed are the peacemakers; for they shall be called the children of God. . . I am not come to destroy" (the law or the prophets) "but to fulfill . . . Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies. . . He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes . . . Lay not up for yourselves treasure on earth . . . what is a man profited if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Thou shalt love the Lord thy God. . . this is the first and great commandment; and the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. . . One is your Master, even Christ, and all ye are brethren. . . Let brotherly love continue . . . Whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased . . . Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees . . . ye are the children of them which killed the prophets . . . This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations . . . Forgive them, for they know not what they do . . . God that made the world and all things herein . . . and hath made of one blood all nations of men . . . be it known therefore unto you that the


salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it . . . What then? Is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also . . . for the promise, that he should be of the world, was not to Abraham, and to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith . . . One God and father of all who is above, all . . . let brotherly love continue . . . For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ; whose end is destruction . . ."

The Gospels, Acts and Epistles

where is the violence that you speak of ?

Now lets see the (OT):

THE TORAH
"And the Lord spake unto me, saying. . . This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee . . . And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it . . . And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them. . . to drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou art, to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance . . . And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee, thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them; neither shalt thou make marriages with them. . . ye shall destroy their altars and break down their images. . . For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God; the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth . . . And thou shalt consume all the people which the Lord thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them. . . But the Lord thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction until they be destroyed . . . He shall deliver their kings into thine hand, and thou shalt destroy their name from under heaven, there shall no man be able to stand before thee, until thou have destroyed them . . . Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours. . . even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be . . . Of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shall save nothing alive that breatheth . . . thou shalt lend unto many nations and thou shalt not borrow . . . Ye shall utterly destroy all the places wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods. . ."

Deuteronomy.

Now there is problem here and Jesus came to stop this belief. Now this is where he rebuked those who are corrupted, so he can teach us this is not the way. So please don't take things out of contexts.

In these verses he rebuked them below:

— Matthew 5:17-20, — John 8:44, Matthew 23:27
You can look up this information at : http://www.biblegateway.com/

Cat

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 12:12 PM

Now I say without Jesus this world would be gone already just from the example above of the (OT).

Another example:

When an adulteress is arrested in the act and brought to Jesus, the scribes and Pharisees challenge Jesus on Mosaic law, pointing out that she should be stoned. Rather than agreeing, Jesus intimidates the Pharisees into abandoning the project, and tells the woman, "Go and sin no more."

And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more
— John 8:3-11

So Jesus tried to make them abandon this act of stoning people. He asked who amongst you have not sinned? If anyone amongst you have not sinned please cast the first stone, this silenced everyone, didn't it?

So what is the lesson here, stop judging others, stop persecuting others, when you, yourself are guilty of the same sin.

Jake

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 12:56 PM

Cat:
Mt 10:34ff =
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Lk 19:27 =
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me

Lk 12:49ff =
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I if it be already kindled?50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! 51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.


Cat, Jesus was a tyrant.

mike

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 01:47 PM

Jake, it's really interesting that you're reading only what you like to read in order to point out your ideas right. I'm sure you missed out some other interesting passages just because you don't care about what the Bible teaches. This is fake message. I know you can find infinite reasons to argue and to still oppose the Bible. But let me tell you something: people like you have been around this earth and moved on to the next level, but as it is written: "The heavens and the earth shall pass away, but My words will not pass away". The Bible is here for centuries.

Try stealing a car. Would be a police man be a tyrant because he puts you to jail, for not allowing you to do what you want? Do you believe in freedom as "doing what i like to do" ?
Do you think you should be allow to do whatever you find good to be done? How many people still have to step on the land mine before we realize we cannot simply do what we like to do?

John was one of Jesus' best friends, if you read it in the Bible (otherwise your comments and posts are worthless about the Bible), and read what Paul is saying throughout his epistles. His mind was in line with everything Jesus said when He was on Earth. So, i'm sure Paul knew Jesus. I can know a lot about you and still haven't seen you ever. Seeing you doesn't mean knowing you.

I am not a religious fanatic, but i do believe in righteousness and justice, i do believe in taking full responsability of my actions, as the Bible teaches (there are so many examples of people who had to pay for their mistakes) and i do believe in DOING THINGS BY UNDERSTANDING THINGS. The Bible looks to me very understandable. The only condition is to digg into it.

Religion != Bible;
as the God from the Bible is not one who will be pleased if you say "amen" before meal, or one who is pleased if you do all rituals, and is not one who will simply kill you or let your cat die because you said the f-word.

You cannot make comments on something that you never read completely. You cannot judge something by examining part of it. And do not confuse the Bible with Religion. What you exactly want Jake, is to be free. Free from all the lies and stuff that different people try to print in your mind telling what is good and what is wrong. I also want to be free from all the lies around. But freedom comes with a price: the only price of freedom is knowing the truth, and keeping a NARROW PATH (i hope someday we, the human race, would understand this narrow path) in your lifestyle, not doing everything you would like to do, less you end up dead.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
"Whoever practices sin, is a slave of sin".
Did you ever needed a teacher to teach you how to lie, Jake?
But i know, i'm just a religious lunatic. I'm old fashioned, illogical and idiot. But at least i'm free.

Jake

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 01:54 PM

...in response to this comment by mike. That was my point exactly Mike, the religious of today are so caught up with the bull shizzle dogma and rituals that there is basically nothing else to the religion.

I've read the bible a couple of times though, Cat asked for specific instances where jesus was reputed to have shown a violent or dark side, so I gave the examples.

Regardless, my friend, I am about as free as you can get without being airborne. I am not so arrogant to claim I know the 'truth' about the nature of the universe, but I do know that the truth is certainly not contained in a book written cir.1500 years before the industrial revolution.

Cheers for your wisdom though, you're always welcome to add to the debate.

GOD

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 03:52 PM

I'm not even gonna walk into this one, Great article though!

Cat

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 06:03 PM

These are parables Jake of the future, past and present.

Mt-10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth. Christ has to
conquer a peace by overcoming the evil that is in the way of peace. Hence, to
preach the gospel of purity and peace always arouses the opposition of the evil doer. Evil has to be put down before peace can prevail. Hence, while the great end that Christ proposes is peace, the immediate result of his coming, and of the preaching of the gospel, was opposition and bloodshed. But a sword. The
only sword that Christ or his followers use in the conflict is the Sword of the Spirit, but the persecutor has in every age turned upon them the carnal sword. The sword is sent because persecutors use it upon the church= meaning the followers.

Let’s look at history: All who followed Christ were murdered, they were crucified upside down etc. So he was talking about the future, he said in my names sake many will persecute you, which happened after Christ and thru/out history in the Middle East, for 2000 yrs.

Brother against sister, brother etc; let’s look at history: Muhammad brought the sword for anyone who refused to convert to Islam was killed. This is what Jesus was talking about, loll.

Christians rejected Mohamed and rightly so. The Quran did not convince the Meccans, the true Christians, so Muhammad decided to use the sword.
Muhammad Convinced His Followers To Fight. To convince his followers to fight, Muhammad had to give them revelations from Allah, especially since they had to fight against their own relatives in Mecca - against their fathers, brothers, and even grandfathers.

The revelations came in the following verses in the Quran:
O Apostle (Muhammad) incite (literal translation) the believers (Muslims) to fight (Surat Al-Anfal 8:65).

Then Muhammad distorted a story which he took from the Old Testament, to convince the Muslims who were driven out of their homes in Mecca to fight their clans. That story is the story of the children of Israel when they asked the Prophet Samuel to appoint for them a king. That king was king Saul. Muhammad, did not know the name of the prophet Samuel or the name of king Saul (I Samuel 8:4,5 and 10:21-24). So he did not mention Samuel and he called Saul, Talut.

Thus, by the sword Muhammad eliminated Christianity from the Arabian Peninsula. He declared that the Christians were polytheists, and as such they were unclean and should not be allowed to approach the sacred mosque, the Kaaba in Mecca.

So this demonstrates Relative against relative. If you let yourself be deceived by false prophet you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

http://thespiritofislam.com/books/imk/index.html#chap0502

Pissantpunk

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 06:21 PM

...in response to this comment by Damon. I think you misunderstood what he was saying.

He didn't say "A world without God", he said "without religion". Big difference.
Religion isn't God, God isn't religion. God IS however a belief in spirituality.

I see nothing wrong with a belief in God. No one (and I don't care WHO you are) can 100% say there is or isn't a God. Religion on the otherhand is man-made, and has painted God to be what they want you to believe "he" is.

God may exist, God may not. *shrugs* Either way Religion has to go.

Cat

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 06:32 PM

Jake,
Lk 19:27 =
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me:

God created the earth and everything in it. This is a parable: What he is saying is that those who do not choose him, they will destroy this earth. Look around you, all those that use religion or whatever they pull out of the bag to justify their destruction are they not destroying this earth? The end results, they will be destroying themselves.

Lk 12:49ff =
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I if it be already kindled?50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! 51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

These are parables of what is to come: It means to repent before the day of Judgment, people are going to be divided period it has been happening for 2000 yrs, and not everyone believes in God. Just as we are we divided as far as our belief concerning these wars.

Peace,
Jake

Pissantpunk

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 06:40 PM

...in response to this comment by John. Yes, being human IS the fault of humans. Religion makes it easy for one to not blame one self. "God made me this way." "The Devil made me do it." "The BIBLE says it's the right thing to do." Weak excuses that are so easy to spit out when you aren't at fault for your own actions.

Religion isn't the only problem with humans, but it's a really big one.

Pissantpunk

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 06:41 PM

By the way, my friend Tom is in that "Religion" picture you have posted on here.
He's the farthest one back in the image.
Found it kinda fun that you used that pic.

Pissantpunk

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 06:49 PM

...in response to this comment by Kevitivity. Wait.... agnostic atheist? Isn't that an oxymoron?

By the way... Hitler was a Christian. He claimed he was doing "God's work".

ScottC

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 08:06 PM

...in response to this comment by Pissantpunk. Just claiming to be doing Godss work does not make you a Christian - quite the opposite it probably makes you a hypocrite . Leaders use the "God's work" excuse all the time to justify their actions and try and broaden their appeal.

tree

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 08:21 PM

...in response to this comment by xanz doe. I agree, your definitions of what wouldnt be around if there were no religion is not really founded in fact. Many if not most religious people support stem cell research, evolution, womens rights, human rights, and freedom.

There is only one thing that makes religion bad. It is false. However people choose to use those lies, sometimes for oppression but mostly just to perpetuate organizations and make money. All religion is based on false information. Sometimes people do good things even though they are motivated by false or exaggerated information because facts and the truth are too normal, too boring to really motivate them. So, I think thats why it continues to survive and evolve.

People who are willing to base all their decisions on false information are idiots. The problem is, when you need to explain something logical and reasonable to an idiot, they often dont understand or cannot fathom logic, so they do crazy things, making them dangerous.

tree

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 08:25 PM

...in response to this comment by Indra. Islam teaches you that you are weak and incapable on your own so that you continue to seek help from it. That is exactly what bullies do, remind you constantly that you are a wimp and cannot stand up for yourself, so you must continue to subject yourself to their tyrrany.

I am sad for you. Life can be discovered and understood clearly by you, and you alone. You do not need any imam, or teacher, or ancient books to tell you anything. You are good, you are important, and you are strong by yourself.

tree

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 08:30 PM

...in response to this comment by Pissantpunk. Thats just it, once you start claiming stuff to be true when it is actually false, you can justify anything. I dont know if Hitler was actually a christian, but I do know christianity is entirely based on false information, so you can use it to make up and justify almost anything as long as you tag "god is telling me that..." or " what god means is..." to it, and since god doesnt exist to challenge you, you can say anything, no matter how crazy, and no one can challenge you without challenging the "faith".

Cat

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 09:10 PM

Sorry everyone, I made too many mistakes in grammar and so forth in my posts, so if it’s hard to read please let me know and I shall fix them.

Cat

Thursday 21st August 2008 | 09:28 PM

Jake,
Lk 19:27 =
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me:

(Above is a parable Jake)


God created the earth and everything in it. What he is saying is that those who do not follow him, they are on the wrong path. Therefore, they will destroy this earth. Look around you, all those that use religion or whatever they pull out of the bag to justify their aggression, are they not destroying this earth? The end results, they will be destroying themselves, and there will be no salvation to them unless they repent.

Lk 12:49ff = Again this is a parable of what is to come: It means to repent before the day of Judgment, people are going to be divided period it has been happening for 2000 yrs, and not everyone believes in God. Just as we are divided as far as our belief concerning these wars. We know the world will be destroyed, why, because there is greedy people on this earth, they never have enough no matter how much they have it's never enough. Human beings are destroying this earth NOT GOD. GOD will be back to save his followers.

Jake

Friday 22nd August 2008 | 08:55 AM

...in response to this comment by Pissantpunk. That is awesome, tell him I said g'day, and thank him for doing Chees's work!

Jake

Friday 22nd August 2008 | 09:05 AM

...in response to this comment by Cat. Cat, you know your bible, good on ya, who gives a crap?

The bible means nothing to anyone who is not a christian. As a matter of fact, given the miniscule amounts that christians actually know about their own bible, it means very little to the chrsitians themselves.

The bible is full of statements and sentiments telling the reader to convert people or kill them, because there is no place on this earth for those not of that particular religion. Can you give me one reason why this is a good lesson to indoctrinate your child with? Fudge no, how could you, that is blatant child abuse. All holy books have the same garbage messages.

Can you give me a good reason why you would want to teach your child to believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that some omnipotent sky fairy waved "his" wand and turned on the lights of the universe, when everything we know about the universe today contradicts such utter stupidity?

Even "harmless" stories like that of noah's ark damage the child's thought processes for the future.

Pissantpunk

Friday 22nd August 2008 | 10:08 AM

...in response to this comment by ScottC. That is true, but Hitler did claim to be Christian.

Rodney

Friday 22nd August 2008 | 11:40 AM

...in response to this comment by Pissantpunk. No, he didn't actually; this is a common fallacy. He was dead against any religion, which he saw as a Jewish infection.

The song of the Hitler Youth was:
"We are the joyous Hitler Youth,
We have no need for Christian virtue.
Our leader is our savior;
The pope and rabbi shall be gone.
We shall be pagans once again. "

Cat

Friday 22nd August 2008 | 01:24 PM

Jake, to really to be honest with you,

Reading the bible is not enough, one has to look at history and compare it to words that are written in the Bible. One has to understand the background of the verse why it was said and understand the struggle that took place during that period of time. By taking a verse and pointing to it without addressing the complete story (Background) then it will be misleading because it loses its original meaning (Then it’s left for false interpretation). Last but not least, is the lesson to be learned by message brought forward from the bible.


Let’s look at Jesus the person; you claim he was a tyrant But YOU haven’t provided any evidence to that accusation. I see that he was right on all the points he made including Prophesies he made. Everything he said was dead on, there was no mistakes that I can see. He was Loving, a unifier, and a great teacher who taught virtue and what it meant to be virtuous.


Now let’s look at Conversion into Christianity, It’s is not a document that one signs on the dotted line, but it’s converting the heart. Now what does converting the heart mean, you become spiritual, you develop faith; you learn to love your neighbor, care about others besides yourself and your family.

You said Christianity forces itself on others, not true, in actuality a real Christian is converted thru the heart this is something one can’t even explain because it is spiritual. The Church is within you, it’s not an actual building, and you make decisions according to spirituality. Jesus never forced anyone into Christianity nor did his Disciples and he forbid them to do so. Jesus wanted his disciples to teach everyone so they can open their hearts to Jesus and receive him in their hearts, this is Christianity. Be aware of false teachers such as the Catholic Church, they used force, they cared about numbers at the end of the day. Hanging people on trees, torturing them, and or making them say I accept Jesus by force and signing on the dotted line is a false teaching ( it’s not written in the Bible). Anyone can be a Christian by name but a true Christian is thru the heart.

Cat

Friday 22nd August 2008 | 01:41 PM

Eye Witnesses to the Crucifixion
The apostle Peter declared to the Jews who lived at the time of the crucifixion of Christ: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it (Acts 2:22-24).

The apostle John, who was an eye witness of the crucifixion of Christ recorded:
Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced (John 19:32-37).

My Lord and my God (John 20:28).
These words were not an exclamation but a confession.

More than five hundred people saw the risen Christ (I Corinthians 15:6).
All of the events of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ were "according to the scriptures" and fulfilled Old Testament prophecies tot he letter (I Corinthians 15:1-4). All of the witnesses of these events - many of whom were martyred because of their testimonies - are more than sufficient to confirm the truth about the crucifixion of Christ. More importantly, the crucifixion of Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world:
. . .
knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver and gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you (I Peter 1:18-20 NKJ).

Apostle Peter:
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of (2 Peter:1, 2).

Cat

Friday 22nd August 2008 | 02:15 PM

My last evidence to your arguments:

The (Ignored) Extermination of Iraqi Christians

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h503pUkqfoQ

Is Bush a Christians? Let's us see if he really is and does he represent Christianity?

Bush protects Iraqi Christians:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTstzb7qSI4

Debra

Friday 22nd August 2008 | 02:33 PM

Jake, I disagree with you that the world would be better without religion. But you already knew that!

I do not circumvent logic in place of my religious belief. I adore logic, science, evolution, etc. I adore my brain. I also adore my heart and spirit. I could just about freaking adore myself because I think I have the best of both sides - and it only matters what I think for me. I have been an atheist. And I have experiences that give a knowledge ONLY FOR MYSELF that God and Jesus Christ are real. I am thinking constantly and seeking knowledge constantly. The more I increase my knowledge of this world we live in, the more my faith is increased. I am one of those people who believe that God, Jesus Christ and MOST of the logic/science/evolution marry perfectly. I qualify that with the word "most" simply because science, itself, is obviously continually evolving - as is my spiritual life.

I am glad you are "people tolerant" Jake since you do not believe in religious tolerance. ;-D

What is this business - I have never heard of it before: "Qi Gong practitioners would not need to give up their organs to wealthy Chinese" ????

I, like you, believe children must choose for themselves - whatever they want to believe, yes, no, maybe, simply whatever. Anything else is absolutely so wrong!

"If religion truly were the individual pursuit for spiritual purification or perfection, it would be personal, not congregational, and no country or family or child would be labelled under it." I disagree with you on this, Jake. I do not see wherein any person, religious or atheist could make this claim 100%. Too many variables.

"Without religion women would be free from their idiotic repression in the Middle East." Probably so.

"Without religion people would be more concerned with what they did with their lives, rather than what they avoided." I don't agree. There are many weird atheists and many neurotic atheists.

"Without religion the strongest and most divisive form of segregation would be dissolved and many wars and borders would become irrelevant." Completely disagree. Warmongers are warmongers.

"Without religion stem cell research could continue uninhibited and cure many debilitating diseases." Nah. Many people, for diverse reasons, reject stem cell research.

"Without religion the scourge of AIDS and other STDs would be controlled by a condom." HUGE NO. Religion has nothing to do with it, except for maybe the Catholics? (At least that is the only church I have heard of banning use of condoms). Sooooo seriously NO! Not all people will use condoms even if they were handed to them at the last second by a fandamntastic condom fairy.

"Without religion, people wouldn't pray for peace, they would work towards it." Definitely not! See warmongers above.

" ... going to church or mosque or synagogue has a positive influence on a great number of people. I suggest though that this has a lot more to do with there being a social congregation of like-minded people than there actually being any spiritual connection or closeness to one deity or another." This has not been my experience although I think it could be for some.

"Answer this, apart from social interaction, what does your religion actually do for you that you couldn’t for yourself?" Redeem me. Provide me with personal miraculous experiences.

-Deb

mike

Friday 22nd August 2008 | 05:32 PM

"I don't believe in atheists. I believe in people who say 'No' to everything else than themselves and their own passions."

Watch out not to be one of them. Looks nice in the beginning, but ends up painfully, before you even realize it.

Cat

Saturday 23rd August 2008 | 08:16 AM

...in response to this comment by mike. Mike,

I agree with you, very good response.

Johan

Saturday 23rd August 2008 | 05:43 PM

This i believe. I believe there is no god.

You article is exactly the reason why i don't believe in a god.

I have read the bible and came to one conclusion. You must be an utter idiot to believe in such a god.
He drowns everyone because they were bad in his eyes. Innocent children included. He murders every first born child of the Egyptians, including innocent childeren. He kills 70 people because they saw his ark. He gives orders to completely murder a whole race just because they don't believe in him. He approves of slavery. Work on the Sabbath you must die. If you're gay you must die. This goes on and on in the Old Testament.

The Movie Whore

Sunday 24th August 2008 | 02:49 AM

I have been sitting back and holding my tongue a lot lately with the bashing of religion. Quite simply because I believe in turning the the other cheek.

There is one thing that consistently hits my anger button with just about every anti-religion post I have ever seen, not just here and not just by Jake but in general.

I am an intelligent person whose IQ is close 200. I am not stupid. I take offense to being told on a consistent basis that to believe in anything other than science makes me stupid or ignorant in some way form or fashion.

If you choose that you can not believe anything you can not be measured by science then by all means do so and lead a long happy life in doing so. However to sit and cast aspersions on those that do not need everything proved by science is just as bad those religious zealots that cast aspersions against those who do not share their beliefs.

Now a lot of stupid things get done in the name of faith but it is not the religion or the beliefs that I lay blame on it is the individual/s that have taken things to the extreme that get my blood boiling.

My faith and the teachings of Jesus Christ have given me many joys in my life and have given comfort in times of need. Can I see it, touch it, have it proven to me in a lab? Of course not but that does not make my faith any less real nor does it make me an ignorant buffoon or a danger to myself or the world around me.

Common sense says if I am sick, I go to a doctor. If my kids get sick I take them to the doctor and I am a man of faith.

If you don't like a particular faith for some reason fine. If you want to be an Atheist, fine. If you want to comment on a particular person that has taken their faith to the extreme, fine. If you want to condemn every one that believes different than you, then you lump your self in with the other extremists.

Jake

Monday 25th August 2008 | 07:05 AM

Hi Jim, Thanks for adding to the debate, though sorry it took me so long to get back to you, holidays are a wonderous thing, you see. In future, don't bite your tongue or hold back, you're an intelligent guy, clearly, who has a faith, an opinion, and a reason, so add to the debate.

Science is not, and never will be the antithesis of religion. Science is an actual attempt to understand our universe, from the very smallest organism, to the very largest astranomical body. Science is continually proven and disproven, reassessed and reworked as our understanding of the universe evolves with us. Science, therefore, is not part of the debate.

Vestage in science doesn't make you intelligent and belief in one religion or another doesn't make you stupid, we clearly established that in my article "Are gods for stupid people?". Belief without reason or 'faith', however, in my opinion, is indeed stupid. Moreso, it is the height of conceipt and negligent to those centres of your intelligence that demand logic and reasoning.

To those who say, there is only one god and his name is allah and his profit was mohammad, or there is only one god and he doesn't have a name and his son was sent to earth to save all of man kind, I say, so the fu*k what? Why should that have any bearing on anyones lives?

My big beef with religion is that it claims to be a big old infalliable cure-all for this intangible, metaphorical, etherical thing called the soul. But who's soul is it? It's yours, not the religion's soul, and how can it purport to know any better than any other religion to know anything about the soul, when there is no reason to suggest that there even is a god, let alone a soul.

You say Jim that you get many joys out of your life because of JC and his teachings, and I think that that is just awesome, so did I, back in the day. But really, are they JC's teachings, or are they some other intelligent person's teachings and would it really matter if those teachings didn't come from the son of god but in fact a 1st or 2nd century poet? Are those things that you've learnt and experienced, things that you could have experienced without JC?

My question and the theme of this article is this, people that subscrible to religion claim to get something out of that association, but why weren't you getting that outside of the religion and are you sure it is something that you wouldn't have learnt or experienced without religion?

Stringer

Monday 25th August 2008 | 05:43 PM

I respect everyone’s right to an opinion and the right to share it, but this posting is filled with uneducated assumptions and just outright wrong information. Personally, I was raised catholic, but am not a big fan of religious institutions because I too feel that religion should be more of a personal pursuit with a social aspect, not vise versa. But I have been seeing a lot of writings like these which worries me because they do not provide a good, or even real, argument. Much of these writings are based off extremes generalized into the general pool of religion.

The writer, who claims to research all he writes about, has obviously tried to remove the institutional religion from his life and speak out against it without bothering to learn much about in the first place. As he does admit to his biases in his bio, this is clearly from a western standpoint, probably from someone who has not traveled much and mixed with different cultures. The problem here is that this bias is not presented in the writing; a responsible person, or at least someone who is “accountable for all of [his] thoughts and actions,” would not make blanket statements and present opinions in a form of fact.

“Most religions are a scourge; they breed nothing but ignorance and preach nothing but intolerance.”
Any decent religious studies would show the ignorance in this statement. Yes, religion does breed ignorance and intolerance, but you would have to be sadly ignorant (more so than any religion could breed into you) to ignore the vast amounts of good it has done in these general areas. I personally have never studied a religion or even heard of one that comes close to this level of “evil” so to say most are is just ridiculous. What you should be writing about here are the extreme religious cults which are not really religion in its essence, but extremists that use religion as a tool rather than a way to bring themselves up.

“If this were not true, terrorists would not use Islam as a weapon, the KKK would not use Christianity as a weapon, Qi Gong practitioners would not need to give up their organs to wealthy Chinese, good Catholic boys would never be touched by their priests and 15 month old boys could have hope for the future.”
Again, I’m not sure how a person could use a statement like this to back up why religion is bad. What do Islamist terrorists and the KKK have in common? Oh ya, they are both extremist sects that use religion to do damage and as a result are strongly opposed and ostracized by their respective religions. Major point here; THEIR OWN RELIGIONS DO NOT APPROVE OF THEM. These are groups of people who misuse religion, and if there was no religion there is no doubt in my mind that they would simply find another tool to continue their cause.
Now one could make the argument that it does not matter whether these people are part of religion or not, just the fact that religion exists allows them to operate. Or bring up the fact about the pedophile priest being in the religion. But these too are foolish; just because something has some bad aspects does not mean the whole thing is horrible. Do you have any idea how many kids get molested at school, and how many crimes of intolerance there are on campuses across the country? School sounds pretty scary to me, maybe we should scrap that too, or did we forget about the far reaching benefits of teaching our children here. Or take for example something as big as industrialization. Think of all the related pollution problems, it led to the creation of ratty cities, it makes possible arms buildups and weapons of mass destruction, and it leads to war over dwindling resources. But we also have to remember that industrialization, with all of its problems, is the reason we have extensive medical knowledge, advanced technologies, good living conditions, and is part of the reason you are sitting in front of a computer rather than working the fields right now.
See, it is easy to put out all of these evil examples as an indicator for the benefit of religion because they stick out, in history, the media, our minds, etc. We are exposed to the extreme bad news and are actively reminded that they are related to religion. But when a religious neighbor takes the time to run and grabs your kid before he runs out into traffic, you probably see it as a good deed, but not hear about how she acted like she did because she was raised in a religion that taught her to have a sense of commitment and love for those around her. So in our minds we do not get the good side associated with the religion as much. By only hearing about the extreme bad things, it is easy to start generalizing religion as hurtful.

“Without religion women would be free from their idiotic repression in the Middle East.”
Idiotic repression? Do some real research. Take the time to actually find out why some of these traditions are in place. I agree they are repressive and I oppose them, but they are not really idiotic. Many of those repressions are based on the idea that the woman is the gem of the household and must be protected and some are of prudent respect. I’ve learned while traveling that a lot of cultures look at us like we are idiots and cannot understand why we objectify our women or how women themselves think that their control can come from sexual power.

“Without religion the strongest and most divisive form of segregation would be dissolved and many wars and borders would become irrelevant.”
It is true that there are wars and borders that would fall if religion was not present. BUT, have you ever taken into consideration what other wars or borders there might be without religion? I know it is easy to see where religion has caused war, but what about all the times it has actually prevented it, or what about the boarders that were never put up because everyone was unified by a religion.

“Without religion stem cell research could continue uninhibited and cure many debilitating diseases.”
Just because most of the opposition comes from religious people does not mean stem cell research would go on if religion was not here. Just because you take religion away does not mean everyone stops caring about fetuses. And there are many opposed to stem cell research because they fear that we could play with something genetic that we do not understand causing significant consequences. (And anyways, with way less war, no jihad, and more babies surviving past 15mo, is it really a good idea to solve a bunch of diseases? Has anyone else noticed the world is already overpopulated?)


“Without religion the scourge of AIDS and other STDs would be controlled by a condom.”
I wish this logic would have worked for my close atheist friend who had a baby in college. Also, if we’re talking about the scourge of AIDS, we have to talk about Africa. You need to realize, its not so much their religion telling them not to use condoms, its more the fact that a vast majority in risk are extremely poor and do not have a 7/11 around the corner. (Someone should probably email WHO and any group that teaches sex education and tell them that they are wasting they’re money teaching non religious people as extensively as religious people because it is only the religious who do not listen and do not use a condom.)

“Without religion, people wouldn't pray for peace, they would work towards it.”
Possibly, but without religion how do they know what peace is? And why bother working for peace if we “are the only God [we] need to answer to?” as in the words of the author’s view. I am glad that you can still lead a loving life without religion, but do you think everyone would live like you if they felt there was no judge to watch their actions? I think this type widespread mindset would be awfully dangerous to society.


So I remind you, try not to just concentrate on what is in front of you when making conclusions about something. There are any different things that might not be readily apparent, but vitally important. I cannot, and no one else either, say whether religion has had a good or bad effect on overall humanity though I strongly side with the positive. Before you blast religion and though it out the window take a minute to really think about what a world might be like without major religions. Think of all the individual dogmas that everyone would be living by, that sounds less united than our current situation. Also, think, would you really want to like in a world where everyone had the understanding that they could do anything in their lives that they wanted to and it wouldn’t matter in the end because there is no form of judgment?

-Stringer

Ryan

Tuesday 26th August 2008 | 12:40 AM

Religion or not, people are passionate. If it's not Jesus or Alah, it'll be in the name of Mother Earth that they do intolerable things.

To answer your question "What does religion do for you that you can't do for yourself?".

I personally am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints. I find truth in life everywhere, not just the church--but I know there are some non-exclusive truths independent of belief that we all must accept and live to fulfill our eternal purpose taught by God through His church. Those truths will lead us to capacities and happiness beyond our comprehension. I know this stuff because I've felt it deeper in my soul than any other feeling I've ever experienced in this life as I've prayed about them. Indescribable sensations more real than touch.

Your argument has been around for thousands of years and is still wrong "What can religion do that you can't do for yourself".

You didn't create yourself, you are here and therefore something created you (and your parents, etc.). Whether you choose to believe that "something" that caused your existence is an all loving all powerful god who wants to give you everything he's got, or a freak alien scientist with your brain in a vat, you can't deny you are here and therefore can not deny some entity that created you. So again, you can not will yourself into existence and so even you owe your very life to some "religion".

Starve my kid cause he doesn't say Amen? That's insane. My 3 year old starts a prayer with "Dear heavenly poop" at least once a week. We can't help but laugh and then tell him to knock it off, but we're still feeding him.

Jake

Tuesday 26th August 2008 | 06:48 AM

...in response to this comment by Stringer. Hi Stringer. Many, many thanks for adding such a wealth of knowledge to the debate, you raise many very interesting points.

With respect to my own background, I've spent a great deal of time working in the middle east and asia and have certainly seen some amazing things. The point of this article, and I apologise if it was not clear enough, was to point out that any good, or indeed bad, that comes from religion is completely redundant without religion, thus it is totally redundant. People claim to have experienced wonderous things with the help of their religion, but from my experience, these are things that could have just as easily been experienced without religion.

I certainly admit that the above article was a complete oversimplification, as I'm sure you'd agree, there was very little depth at all attributed to each of the 'scourges' related to religion, this was done on purpose to envoke a response.

You question whether people could live a 'loving' existence without an unseen arbtrator, but it is not only unto myself that I am held accountable, there is a comprehensive legal system, a societal code of ethics and morality and the ultimate golden rule; treat as you would be treated.

The unseen gods of people exert no influence over those who believe in them, it is in their mind or rationality that they make their decissions. The multiplicity of their thoughts condoning or condeming actions based on their learned morality and ethics. Different people equate those silent voices to different arbitrators, be they angels, gods or thought process.

Jake

Tuesday 26th August 2008 | 07:16 AM

...in response to this comment by Ryan. Hi Ryan, thanks for commenting.

You're right, I was created by my parents, two people who loved each other and expressed it with genital friction. I assume that this wasn't your point though and you were alluding to some masterful creater of the universe and all life.

Personally, after careful consideration and a great deal research, I came to the conclusion that it was a cascade of natural events that were bound to happen over the literal eternity that they had to unfold.

Even if there were some sort of magical sky pixie waving their magical wand to create light, form and a rest on sunday, I think it is beyond naive, and beyond ignorant to purport to express any sort of certainty in the matter without any reason to suggest that such a perposterous series of events were possible. Then to teach your children such stupidity is criminal.

Harsha

Monday 1st September 2008 | 08:36 PM

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. - Richard Dawkins

I think this one is there in The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins. After reading The Old Testament I can't help but agree with every one of those adjectives

Jake

Tuesday 2nd September 2008 | 05:58 AM

...in response to this comment by Harsha. I totally agree Harsha and it was while reading the old testament that I began to question christianity. Then when I began researching the new testament, I found that there were no 'words of wisdom' contained within that one could not learn or experience in everyday life. The religion brings nothing new to the table, it is redundant.

Perhaps in a day and age where morality and societel ethics were either questionable or non specific, religion may have been a beacon, but now, it is truely redundant.

pertutti

Tuesday 16th September 2008 | 05:05 AM

In the chorus of praise that is greeting the Pope's visit to France, numerous voices are rising to criticize this representative of a sectarian and obscurantist institution.
My own protest takes the form of a song and a video clip:
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=RixoXcf7eso

http://www.le-monde-pluriel.eu/content/0/70/

salvatore.pertutti

agog

Thursday 2nd October 2008 | 04:12 AM

Avowed atheists are just as capable of starving people, and on a very large scale. Witness Stalin and Mao.

I find very little of that very rational principle that you espouse of 'treat as you would be treated' here. Apparently you only abide by this when you judge the other to be equally enlightened and worthy of such treatment. There's nothing much here other than sneering.

I have to agree with the xanz doe that too many atheists seem to waste their time this very negative way. Your response to him was just another sneer.

Jake

Thursday 2nd October 2008 | 06:59 AM

...in response to this comment by agog. Are you implying that Stalin and Mao did what they did because they were atheist? I think not Agog. Indeed, to do much of what these war-mongerers did throughout their reigns was contrary to basic morals, but they were, nonetheless acting on their own rationalle, their own form of conviluded logic. Being an atheist does not make you a humanist, indeed, being an atheist really only means that you hold no vestage in the fantasy of theism and religion, beyond that is your own personality.

Human beings hold far too much solace in things they have never whitnessed, never experienced and never encountered. Truely, savation through belief is simply escapism to the extreme.

jimbo

Monday 16th November 2009 | 08:46 AM

...in response to this comment by xanz doe. but how can you honestly believe in jesus christ? a guy born of a virgin who was truly magical and then turned into a zombie after death and then rose into the clouds? it has ridiculous written all over it. as an atheist, i don't go around attacking, merely pointing out flaws in logic and science. if your child grew up believing in santa claus and still did so when he was thirty, you'd want him to know the truth sooner rather than later to try and quash his delusions, wouldn't you?

jimbo

Monday 16th November 2009 | 08:57 AM

...in response to this comment by Jake. "Usually, this comes from the utter disgust atheists feel when they see children being abused with religion. I'm sick of it and I recognise that it must stop if we are to really progress as a species."

perfectly put jake. i too can't stand children being abused by religious means, and wholeheartedly agree that if we're to grow as a species, then certain deluded fairy-tale aspects of humanity need to be gotten rid of. children should be given a choice, not have bizarre ways of life forced down their throats. by educating instead of brainwashing (that's why children are taught about religion at such a young age, is it not? otherwise who on earth in their right minds could possibly religious?), the choice is there and most likely logic, science, fact and pure sensibility will in the end prevail.

jimbo

Monday 16th November 2009 | 09:04 AM

...in response to this comment by Cat. just one question cat: what line do you draw to differentiate what in the bible is a parable and what should be taken literally?

Ben

Monday 30th November 2009 | 04:52 PM

The truth is, everyone has his or her own personal beliefs about God, religion and faith. No two people have exactly the same beliefs, there are always slight differences from one person to the next. The big problem throughout the ages is that some people try to impose their beliefs onto others. There is no respect for other sets of beliefs but their own. And where there is disrespect there is conflict.
There will always be religion, faith, believers and non-believers in this world. What we need to learn to do, is to accept and respect each others differences. We should know that by now, we just have to do it.

james

Sunday 17th January 2010 | 12:12 AM

none of the things you mention will change without religion.
std's and hiv will skyrocket, since condom use is irrelevant to the spread of epidemic. gay men are the number one cause of HIV contamination.
in fact, catholic bishops in africa have been the leading proponents of condom use among women, despite the churches overall ban.
borders will not cease, nations will get as viscious as the atheist communists and nazis of the 20th century.
oppression of women will not end in the middle east since it's culturally based.
plus men like their harems.

the church has done nothing to effectively slow stem cell reseach.
many people who put a lid on their demons wil no longer do so without faith.


silly list.

Papa

Sunday 17th January 2010 | 03:34 AM

...in response to this comment by james. "gay men are the number one cause of HIV contamination. "

Can I get a source or site for that statement?

Monday 18th January 2010 | 07:55 AM

...in response to this comment by james. If the bishops on the ground are handing out condoms then they are ACTING AGAINST THEIR RELIGION, which demonstrates my point.
Gay men are not the demographic most responsible for spreading HIV, this is propoganda, not fact. The number one group responsible for the spread remains drug users.

The way that the church has blocked effective stem cell research is by funding politicians to oppose them. I'm not talking about 'bribes', I am referring to contributions tot ehir election campaigns. In Australia, we have no openly atheist politicians, so every conscience decision (and stem cell research falls under this umbrella, as does euthanasia and sex education in public schools) is effectively a religious decission.

Augustine

Monday 17th May 2010 | 04:09 AM

To the writer of this Article (Jack)

Im born as a Catholic boy who grown up as a man.
Im sorry that I completely disagree with your statements, In-fact all of them. I would love to answer all of those STATEMENTS/FALSE FACTS but im too lazy to answer because I hate arguing for something that is been firmly there(In all human mankind believes) for thousands of years. So sorry man If I write it so messy, the most important thing is the message/points of my comments which you would understand after you read them.

First of all, I still can not believe that a child got starved for 3 days or so without saying "AMEN"? Well In my family sometimes I do not even pray before I eat and I got get WHIPPED or PUNISHED...

If there is no RELIGION. I am sure 100% than the world would DEFENSE their COUNTRY/PEOPLE/GROUPS in the name of other ENTITY (Government, Leader, Earth, Rock etc) instead of GOD.
I truly believe that the horror caused on earth including the pedophile by the CATHOLI CHURCH is not caused by the RELIGION but the MEN themselves.

About the woman who have less FREEDOM. I think this is not caused by the religion too. I think this is part of the human nature. You can see in the animal world, the MAN TIGER/LION do the job(PREY for MEAL) for their FAMILY and WIFE.

About the CONDOM. As you know that HUMAN does not like to CHANGE radically during the CONDOM age hahahahaha.
People prefer to have SEX without a CONDOM. I believe this pleasure has been in the HUMAN life for a thousand years. The do not want to lose the pleasure of sex by using Condom.

In the BIBLE also (to be honest Well I dont know all the verses) JESUS came to earth to teach, forgive, save and change other people to live to be a better person. What I am trying to say is that, it was even hard for JESUS to change people from a comfortable life to a better life/wiser life which is not more comfortable.

People do need Pray, to any of their belief. Some one once said that prayer once to be used as a medicine. I also have seen this in a show in the Discovery channel. That is why many people do YOGA/PRAY/MEDITATING to calm their mind, self reflection. I think is one of the reason what makes the difference between HUMAN and ANIMAL. I also believe even a non-religious/atheist people do pray sometimes, maybe mostly they pray/wish for something. Well I don't know because Im not Atheist.

About the war. I think the concept of border is already in the human nature . People like to be in privacy, VIP, special, higher status. That is why they make a BORDER. Don't you think SO???? I have seen so many of these. Maybe you could see it in the goverment etc

Religion should never be given the benefit of the doubt. huhhhhh To be honest I do not gain any benefit (financial or anything) to my life. All I get from the religion is the teaching of the ways of life which could take a very long time if I do it for my self. In a simple word, it's like a map/book to make us smarter, loyal, devoted and wiser.

Exempt Taxation. Like I said, Human changed so HARD. Jesus does not want people to pay taxes due to the SITUATION in that day??? Probably the situation in JESUS' day was so POOR, BAD and CORRUPTED. That is why he was kinda not (I said KINDA NOT) like to apply TAXATION system in his day..... You get it Jack?

Finally my answer for you for this statement: what does your religion actually do for you that you couldn’t for yourself?
Please bare with me for another 3 short paragraphs.

Well religion helps me to guide my life. Yes I know there are many/not many confusions in every religion. It is just like in MATH/SCIENCE where sometimes people do not understand why (Gravity is exists, SQUARE ROOT, division etc).

Our teacher would expect us all you need to do is JUST DO IT. What I mean by JUST DO IT is, just use those THEORY, KNOWLEDGE, WISDOM and TOOLS(Square root, Gravity, division, teachings in the bible) given and apply in you life and problem solving.

If you want to find out behind those confusions in the bible/science/math/theory then what you need is just to take some of our time to learn about those confusion in the RELIGION/MATH/THEORY/SCIENCE. Only few people understand behind those confusion even in SCIENCE, MATH, THEORY and RELIGION. Not every one is EINSTEIN, JESUS, MOHAMED or BUDHA. There could be a great meaning for your/our/my personal life.

Sorry I LIED few more Paragraphs please. May I

I HAVE FREEDOM in my CATHOLIC religion. For your information Church is like human also, because it is driver by mankind. So that is why the old church was hard to change. I would take times for them to change. I am happy that there were some changes in my church. We become more FREEDOM, but we must be RESPONSIBLE for our ACTs. That what the catholic church told me in their HOMILY
My Priest:
"Jesus gives you a FREEDOM and you must responsible for each of our act (paid on earth and in hell)". Paid on earth you know, breaking the human/regular/local law. Paid in Hell you know, breaking the God's Law (Pretty similar to the human/regular/local law).

There you go. I hope I could get the message to you. I wrote this comment without thinking that mean it is pure coming out of my mouth (That mean, there I have not corrected/double check my comment).
I really appreciate your time to read my comments.

Take care Jack and Have a nice evening.

Xovel

Monday 17th May 2010 | 04:35 AM

Wait for it, wait for it....

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha I can not believe there was some ATHEIST guy who called you a FOOL hahahahahahahahahaha that is just so funny.

So sorry man if I laughed too hard.

He/She said

"If you think religion is the only reason people don't use rubbers, you're a fool. That said, without religious influence use of condoms in HIV-hit areas would certainly be higher."

That is why Think twice before you write or at least Get your own facts man.

Also May I suggest you as a MAN, writing an Article arguing about Religion and Believes is not a WISE choice (You've also put this smoothy offensive article in the STUPIDITY column, also the PICTURE above that is pretty OFFENSIVE maybe for few Religious people!).
I hope you could be more wiser in the future. Oh well it's 2010, I hope you could be more wiser than you were (in this article was 2008 jaaa).

Augistine comments was pretty good answers to those non-believers. I love it.

FYI Sometimes Im Agnostic/Religious/Atheist and Im definitely cool (mind and body).

LUCY

Monday 17th May 2010 | 05:01 AM

No Comment. You'll now the answer soon enough my friends. X